Just Wear The Damn Mask

[rachelvarga]

I think people have this belief that freedom means rebel against everything. If the law says don't eat your poop, someone will say it is their Godgiven right and eat it.

Individualism is good but it's really extreme sometimes. Look at how many nursing homes there are. I had never heard of anything like that until I got here. For extreme situations it's good but people hear treat old people like shit because they might interfere with their life. "okay boomer"  is a great example of how self centered people are.

Me me me and what "I" want. This hyper individualism breeds narcississm. I'm so important I don't need to do my part. This is actually a threat to American society. People spend too much time trying to be the badass outlaw.

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[SIDEWINDER]

Sad to say, wearing a mask is no longer a medical issue but is now a political (personal freedoms) issue.  No one should have the freedom to spread a deadly virus because they won't wear a mask. 

[rachelvarga]

There is a point where individualism becomes narcissism and ignorance.

[SIDEWINDER]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xITg7CF ... e=emb_logo

[G]

On the other end of the spectrum from individualism you have servitude.

Before the mask became political Dr. Fauci warned of the false security from wearing a mask and the reason I will repeat time after time there is other precautions that need to be taken to protect oneself from the virus.  The reason I say protect oneself is because you sure the hell is not protecting anyone else if you can not protect yourself. 

The gangsters that believe they run this world want us to believe we are going to loose all of our civil liberties if we vote for Biden and that we are all going to die from the virus if we vote for Trump. Much like everything in this world somewhere in the middle is a balancing point which in my opinion is the best outcome for humanity.

Fear is the only currency the gangsters have and until humanity realizes that we will continue to give up our power to the  gangsters. 

[rachelvarga]

When social media started polarization increased. When you are in a group and everyone says your right and cheers each other on the views become entrenched. Paranoia spreads.

Example before the last election people were freaking out saying Trump was going to cause world war 3 and could launch nukes anytime he wanted. Not exactly true but news story after news story makes it sound like he just pushes a button and boom. The secretary of Defense must authenticate along with the president. He can't say no technically but he could not authenticate. The military could defy him even though it's illegal. No one is going to let him pre-empt a strike.

Clinton will takes us to communism. That is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Shows a complete lack of understanding. The US could become more socialist but no more that any west European country.

So Bush was a Fascist and Obama a communist. Another ridiculous belief. Another lack of understanding of political philosophies.

There will not be civil war here. Americans have not had a war here since the 1840s. People are soft. Not going to happen.

The Internet is a reflection of humanity. So what does that tell us? Most people are idiots.

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[Dirk Diggler]

It’s not polarization, it’s fearmongering, mainstream media is complicit in it, and unfortunately far too many people have fallen for it. At some point people will have to embrace logic instead of fear and the listen to facts and science instead of political hacks.


Of those who tested positive for the virus those 49 and and younger have a 98.8% survival rate, those 70 and older have a 94.6% survival rate; those are facts. It is also fact that Sweden has never mandated mask wear nor instituted wide spread lockdowns yet are now fairing far better than other European countries despite those countries having severe restrictions and suffering dire economic consequences as a result.


If you want to live in fear so be it but if you want everyone to live in fear with you you’re living in the wrong country. Not going to happen. To paraphrase Marcus Aurelius you cannot lose what you don’t have and none of us are promised tomorrow, only today.

[rachelvarga]

Um yes it is polarzation. I'm talking about the left and right becoming more entrenched in their views. I should probably start a different thread in that.

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[SIDEWINDER]

Fearmongering as one poster said? If that's the case, it's not working as you still see all kinds of people clumped together without any regard to catching Covid-19 or even more important no regard as to spreading it.  I tend not to look at the percentages but at over 200 thousand in The United States alone who've died of the virus.  It's not just a number. It's people who are no longer with us with families who loved and miss them.  That's the real picture---not percentage numbers. In many cases, people who didn't have to die.

[Dirk Diggler]

Fearmongering as one poster said? If that's the case, it's not working as you still see all kinds of people clumped together without any regard to catching Covid-19 or even more important no regard as to spreading it.  I tend not to look at the percentages but at over 200 thousand in The United States alone who've died of the virus.  It's not just a number. It's people who are no longer with us with families who loved and miss them.  That's the real picture---not percentage numbers. In many cases, people who didn't have to die.

It is unfortunate that over 200K people have died in the US since the pandemic began and each death comes as a personal loss for loved ones and friends. It is telling though that I provided facts yet you respond with an emotional argument and data that isn’t meaningful without context.


First of all, off all the virus related deaths upwards of 35% or more occurred among elderly in nursing homes/assisted living. This stems from failures by the local governments and facilities to protect the most vulnerable and ensure proper safety control measures were in place. General public control measures have no affect on how those facilities are managed. Your arguing in favor of measures that has destroyed livelihoods while only 130,000 in the general public have died from it at most.


Second fact. The average age of death from someone with the virus is 78 which also happens to be the average age of life expectancy here. The fact is people die and we all are going to die. Go check what the average national death numbers are for cancer, the flu, automobile fatalities; maybe you will be enlightened.


Finally, second and third order effects are being completely ignored. If you want to make an emotional appeal then what about families that are struggling to have enough food now due to losing their jobs for no good reason. What about a likely spike in child and spousal abuse due to isolation. What about children, especially poor and minority children, failing to receive the education they need despite no scientific reason to close schools.


The real picture is one that includes all the facts and data instead of cherry-picking a few data points and trying to play on emotions to support a fear and control based narrative.

[SIDEWINDER]

So I take it, you do not feel that wearing a mask would prevent people from catching Covid-19 or spreading Covid-19? 

BTW: For those who know me, I'm not a medical expert or a rocket scientist.  I just studied  how they got rid of Spanish Flu when there were no vaccines  available.  I also look at doctors and medical facilities where mask have been used for over 100 years.  I don't think they're wearing them because they are in style or make the doctors and nurses look more intelligent. They serve a purpose which is to help prevent the spread of germs.

[Dirk Diggler]

So I take it, you do not feel that wearing a mask would prevent people from catching Covid-19 or spreading Covid-19? 

BTW: For those who know me, I'm not a medical expert or a rocket scientist.  I just studied  how they got rid of Spanish Flu when there were no vaccines  available.  I also look at doctors and medical facilities where mask have been used for over 100 years.  I don't think they're wearing them because they are in style or make the doctors and nurses look more intelligent. They serve a purpose which is to help prevent the spread of germs.

How I feel is irrelevant and my point is exactly that "feelings" do not have a place in scientific based discussions and certainly not in decision making.


If you're asking does wearing a mask prevent people from catching covid or spreading covid the answer is no, it factually does not. The efficacy of masks greatly varies with N95 masks being the best in reducing the percentage of respiratory droplets and neck gaiters being the worst and potentially worse than wearing no mask at all.


You can make the argument that the wear of masks might reduce or mitigate the chances of people catching covid or spreading covid, yet it still isn't clear or decided yet exactly how covid is transmitted and how infections occur. Regardless it should be up to individuals to decide how concerned they are about being infected with a virus that has upwards of a 99.75% recovery rate.


Your reference to the spanish flu is faulty as masks were mostly made of guaze like materials back then and experts have concluded flu mask use at that time failed to control infection so I don't know what the source of your study material is. Use of masks in current medical settings are also a poor comparison as they have the best masks, are trained on how to proper wear and use those masks, and environmental factors and other PPE being used is completely different than for the general public.

[rachelvarga]

Well everybody post their sources.

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[G]

Main stream news is a source of fear.

[SIDEWINDER]

Main stream news is a source of fear.

Well, here's the most complete story I've read on the Spanish flu and how they defeated it.  It's long but very detailed.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... lled-1513/

[G]

Thank you for providing that link.  I find the article a good history lesson on how Seattle officials handled the Spanish Flu but I find it to lack on scientific data on how the flu was defeated.

I also find it interesting when you google Spanish Flu mask, every article in the first 20 pages or so are written by news journalist published after March 2020. It takes some digging around but there are medical journals to be found that were published pre-covid times.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3291398/ 

The link above published circa 2006 suggest that the 2nd and 3rd wave of the flu was caused by viral antigenic drift.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1997248/

The link above published circa 2007 compared how two cities handled the flu. My take on it after reading the article is, history repeats itself and that we should have had better emergency plans in place before this pandoosey but got complacent over time.

I think its pretty easy to cherry pick information from the internet to support our individual beliefs and if I have any advise to give being a self proclaimed idiot that I am, is that it is best to do what ever you can to make yourself safe from the virus and be mindful of others.

[Dirk Diggler]

Within a few minutes of searching you can find multiple credible sources that support everything I’ve said to include the CDC itself that has provided every statistic I mentioned.


I have no issue in people wearing masks or taking whatever precautions or measures they feel are necessary. What I do take issue with is people who demand others do the same and propagate a false moral equivalency argument that has no basis in scientific evidence or data related to Covid. They say it is selfish yet I say it is selfish and absurd of them to demand that people give up their religious practices, livelihoods, and personal freedoms for others based on unwarranted fear.

[MrTShirt]

You could just ask Dr. Fauci.  Years ago he said masks do nothing.

[rachelvarga]

Dirk, both sides can find credible sources. Personally I don't think that anyone knows.

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[sgtaliin9150]

Personally I don't think that anyone knows.

Certainly not anyone in this thread. Just arguing for the sake of it.

[Dirk Diggler]

Dirk, both sides can find credible sources. Personally I don't think that anyone knows.

Rachel Varga
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You say that there are credible sources for “both sides” but I’ve yet to see anyone sharing a credible source debunking anything I’ve stated.


To your second point you could be right, but it’s a complete reversal of your original stance when starting this thread which I find interesting.


I never argue for the sake of arguing and especially on social media as it’s a waste of time, even though I do appreciate sgt’s enlightening insights. I do believe however that facts are important and it’s tiresome when you can’t even visit a brothel forum without encountering the same mindless propaganda that isn’t substantiated by facts or scientific data.